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Season 2 episode 6 of the Resist + Renew podcast, where we interview Kadeem, Nirad and Zahra from No More Exclusions.
“It goes back to how the teacher stands at the front. The students act to passively receive. We don’t want to reproduce that amongst ourselves”
– Nirad“Whether the law changes, and then the culture has to catch up, or whether we make it unconscionable to exclude and then the law catches up whenever it does. We don’t mind ultimately. School exclusions will be abolished in this country in our lifetime”
– Zahra
Show notes, links
No More Exclusions Twitter, Instagram and Facebook + their website.
NME have a shop, a crowdfunder, a newsletter. Check out the work they’re doing on a moratorium on school exclusions.
And also, the Soul Shack that Kadeem mentions!
We now have a Patreon! Please help keep the podcast going, at patreon.com/resistrenew. If not, there’s always the classic ways to support: like, share, and subscribe!
Transcript
ALI
This is Resist + Renew,
KATHERINE
the UK based podcast about social movements,
SAMI
what we’re fighting for, why and how it all happens.
ALI
The hosts of the show are
KATHERINE
Me, Kat.
SAMI
Me, Sami,
ALI
and me, Ali.
SAMI
I’m recording this now, baby!
ALI
Shit, it’s a podcast!
SAMI
Right. So welcome everybody to the Resist+Renew podcast. And I am stoked today that we are interviewing and a group of people from No More Exclusions who I will get to introduce themselves in a second. But to kick us off, I will explain who No More Exclusions are.
They are an abolitionist grassroots coalition movement, focused around education. Their mission is to bring about an end to the persistent race disparities in school education in the next five years, and to effect change at legal policy, practice and cultural levels in education and society as a whole over the next 10 years – bold aims – and they want an education system that works for everybody.
So, not a small task. It’d be great if you can all introduce yourselves. Now, Kadeem, you good to kick us off?
KADEEM
Yeah, no problem. So my name is Kadeem. I’ve been organising with a number of students over the last three years. So I’d consider the work of No More Exclusions as closely in line with my life’s work. Maybe seen as a troublesome student growing up now, obviously through that experience, I can see where the unaddressed issues are with the process of exclusions, and kind of what we need to do about stopping them.
SAMI
Amazing, thanks Kadeem. Nirad?
NIRAD
Yeah, thank you for having us on. My name is Nirad. I’m 22. Calling in from from Birmingham, where I grew up. I’ve been organising with No More Exclusions, mainly as part of the youth group for the past two years, since I graduated from university last year.
And it was really during that time, I was introduced, or at least that thought I was introduced to abolition. But it was really without the these past years of being part of No More Exclusions, as well as other groups. I wouldn’t have developed an understanding of abolition, as it applies to the UK and as it applies to the so called education system.
SAMI
Amazing. Thank you Nirad. And last but not least: Zahra.
ZAHRA
Hey, I’m Zahra pronouns she her. I’m a recoveringteacher (all one word). I am one of the Co-founding members of No More Exclusions. And No More Exclusions is going to be three years old, so I’ve been here from the start next month. And I’m also a parent. I’m also a trade unionist, and a PhD student.
SAMI
Amazing. Thank you, everybody. And also, like I just realised, because I’m doing this introduction that we haven’t mentioned that Katherine is also here. Classic, classic, classic, Resist+Renew podcast person.
And so Kadeem, can you kick us off? What what is what’s going on with exclusions in the UK at the moment? Like, what is the situation that you are, as a collective, facing?
KADEEM
Or I’d say, like as a collective. And from my personal experiences as well, there’s a real race disparity when it comes to exclusions. Always being excluded, and why they’re being excluded, and reasons they’ll keep on being excluded. And over policed in the classroom as well. I think, on obviously, through some of the reading that I’ve done looking [unclear] book, and even the things that have to drop in the pandemic, it’s clear to see that is there evidence and significant problem that I am sure the people in power are aware about, but they don’t necessarily want to do something about addressing it. So, higher rates of exclusions, and on the reasons behind the exclusions as well: I don’t think enough care and emphasis is put on family or the child in terms of finding out reasons why they might be struggling to learn
SAMI
Amazing. Thank you. Zahra. Take it away.
ZAHRA
Yeah. So there was a report that came out, I think last week by Agenda on the exclusion of black Caribbean girls, and we know that that’s one of the fastest rising groups in terms of exclusion. And, but historically, the disparities have really, really focused on boys, black boys in particular, and in particular, Caribbean boys. And what, what do we know, in terms of like, what are these disparities? Well, we know that they are up to three, sometimes up to six times more likely to be excluded, and particularly so where, where there are particular intersections, so when you’re looking at race, intersecting with class, disability, gender, when those four things in particular, I think one of the the, the figures is often quoted is that a black boy with special educational needs and disabilities on free school meals is 168 times more likely to be excluded than a white girl, not on free school meals without special educational needs and a disability. And, and anyone can can kind of Google that. And it’s one of the things that you know, is often quoted.
In terms of the generics I know there’s, there is some, there is some false information. In particular, I’ve seen trolls on Twitter that kind of like spreading, basically, what is fake news. You know, these like, ‘I’ve made up a chart myself, there is no such thing as a race disparity in you know, in school exclusions,’ actually, white kids are more excluded, well, they would be more excluded because the majority of population is white. So nobody’s saying that, but we’re talking about disproportionalities, right? So we’re talking about the ratio.
And we’re talking about something that is really long standing, I want people to know that this is decades long. It’s not a new problem is not something that suddenly happened the last few years. It’s not just because of austerity, although austerity has made it worse. It’snot just because of the pandemic that we’ve seen exclusions, do you know what I mean?
This is something that is historically posited, and very deeply rooted in the way this society is structured and the way education functions in this country. So yeah, that’s I hope that gives a bit of of the of the context. But what if I can, because it’s really important to kind of, since I’ve described the I made that comparison, black pupils so that everyone listening knows, are more likely to be disciplined more frequently and more harshly for less serious behaviour. This is all research based, there’s plenty of evidence, and we can provide tonnes of links people interested, less likely to be praised than other pupils, treated in differential ways that can be observed very early on in, in child’s education.
Even Akala in his Natives book, chapter three, talks about this. More likely to be excluded for violent incidents, stereotyped as threatening, expected to be worse behaved and perceived as a greater threat and challenge by teachers. And when you put all of that together, the differential treatment is, is whether it’s intentional intention… because people often talk about, ‘well, you know, unconscious bias is not intentional.’ To me, I first of all, I don’t believe in unconscious bias anymore. Because at this stage now, as I often say, anyone who’s still unconscious must be comatose! There’s no reason for anyone to not be aware of what’s going on in terms of, in education I’m talking about – anyone who’s got an interest in education. In terms of curriculum in terms of, you know, policy, anything like that. The people in power and authority know, they know exactly what’s going on. The reviews have been done, and again and again. And so this is willful, institutional neglect. Really, what’s going on?
SAMI
Yeah, thank you for that. I think that’s a really important point. And I think, like, because people can talk about like structural racism and stuff a lot, but like, it can be quite hard to conceptualise what that means. To like, imagine what it is that looks like in practice. But like, this is what it looks like in practice, right? The stuff that you’re talking about. Like, it’s kids being more likely to be disciplined, it’s talking about people being more likely to be like, not praised for the work they’re doing as well as obviously, like when you’re talking about real structural impacts, like exclusion.
ZAHRA
I’m sorry, just, so that, because this is also really important. When you’re talking about the profile of the – if that even exists – the ‘average excluded black child’, they are actually less likely to be on the special educational needs and disability register. To have been identified. So there’s a whole raft of kids are getting excluded, who have gone under the radar, haven’t been assessed and their needs haven’t been met. They, they are less likely actually to be on free school meals, they’re less likely to have had previous exclusion, so much more likely to be to get there, you know, in one and get excluded as a one off, right? And, you know, as a result of a one off incident.
Also: less likely to have poor attendance, less likely to have a criminal record or to be in care. So a lot of those disadvantages, right, that you see with the excluded average white child don’t aren’t necessarily visible or apparent. So again, you know, what does that signal?
SAMI
No, I think that’s a really good point. I think that’s a really good point. Thank you, Zahra. And Kadeem, you were saying, like that you see this as a thing that’s like, links to state violence? Could you talk a little bit more about that?
KADEEM
Oh, yeah. When I when I say that? I’m basically talking about the presence of labelling, and how that can play a role in criminalization and not decriminalisation. And I think that should kind of a more significant role in, kind of, helping people rather than finding reasons to lock them up.
So from secure schooling, to special provisions and alternative provision, obviously, surveillance, surveilling young people is generally the overarching theme. And on there’s cameras on every corner, not to mention on site; and in some academies, police on site. So, I don’t think that does well, for vulnerable young people to have that feeling. And neurodiverse people as well, of always being watched. I don’t think it does well, but just how you view crime and, just just controlling discipline in general, and how averse you are to punishment.
So yeah, that’s what I mean by state violence, because I feel like it’s on a state of mind that’s kind of engineered with young people. So that’s, that’s my view on that. And maybe why I was excluded.
SAMI
No, I think that’s, I think that’s a really helpful lens. Thank you so much for bringing it in. So it will be really helpful, I think, for people who aren’t as familiar with the ideas that you’re mentioning, like not expecting you to get into loads of detail now, because a lot of it already, like people can Google later. But if you could just talk a little bit more specifically about like exclusion, because that may be a little bit like a dispassionate term, I guess? If you’ve not witnessed it, for what, by the, by what’s been described is quite a violent act. So like, could you describe a little bit like: what is exclusion? Like, literally, what happens? What’s it look like? Does that make sense?
KADEEM
Yeah, definitely make sense. Me, I personally believe exclusion is a hate crime. And it’s a authorised unlawful action, so to speak, because people’s – what’s that? – 36 and a half hours education a week. And by excluding them, obviously, they aren’t meeting that legal requirement. And the local authorities don’t necessarily do anything to correct that. So, unequal outcomes are unknown about from kind of very early on. So I definitely know that that process of exclusion, taking someone out of class for – I’ve been excluded for coming in a couple minutes late and rustling with my bags and getting my pencils out, getting ready for class. Or asking too many questions, even though you’re, you’re in school to learn. So I don’t, I feel like the negative outcomes are disproportionate and excessive for the minor infractions. And obviously, when you get older and it’s about other people in authority, obviously, it’s a lot more difficult to handle. Take it in, because we’ve never been listened to in that position before he was excluded. So there’s things like managed moods as well. Where school kind of try and go around you as a young person, I’d say, lie to your parents and create a false narrative.
No, because obviously, when you’re a young person being excluded, it is is easier for the teacher to kind of, um, yeah, create create a false narrative and and get a few other teachers complaining about minor thing. Kind of authorise those exclusions and yeah. I think I answered your question somewhat.
SAMI
Yeah, no, you definitely did. Thank you Kadeem, that’s really helpful. And this, there’s so much in there that we could chat about. But I’m conscious that people tend to like podcast episodes that are less than, like, three hours long. So I’m going to stop asking you questions, like, we could talk about like hate crimes and all this kind of stuff. But I’m going to keep my opinions on hate crimes to myself. Katherine, over to you.
KATHERINE
Thanks, Sami. And so yeah, thanks so much for sharing all of that information and background and experiences with us. We just want to turn now to ask about what No More Exclusions is about. Nirad, I’m wondering if you can tell us a little bit about NME.
NIRAD
For sure. The thing I’ve realised myself stressing to other people over this past summer, when I’ve been talking to them in Birmingham is that the standout feature to me of NME beyond the principles that are outlined on on the different publications you’ve put out is that we’re intergenerational.
Even the people who are here today, there’s a difference in age amongst all of us. And that not only brings a different experience, right? Schooling in the 70s versus schooling now. But it also brings a different sense of how we were formed to face the struggles that we face. Right, the current situation is affecting someone who’s a lot younger than someone a lot older. And that changes how they approach the situation. And so that’s why the decentralised structure kind of works for us, because it means that people are able to add to and ask questions of, even if we don’t always recognise it, we’re always able to ask questions of each other in a very creative way, because of that structure.
What our organisation is about is, I think Zahra was saying, three, three years old this year, is that right Zahra? Three and a half, four – three years. So it’s been it came out of a moment of crisis, one that is is particularly intense now. Whether we look at the international war-baiting that the UK is trying to get involved in, and actively being a part of, or we see the very the speculation that is causing a lack of fuel, or lack of food to more people than it was before: it’s a moment of crisis.
But they’re more than that, NME’s about developing some kind of power. So if you develop power is not just a one way process. It also means that power has to be taken away from people, people who currently have it. I’m thinking about these gurus, who are either self anointed or anointed by their government. And I can’t just get past the fact that ‘guru’ is another word appropriated from Hindi, appropriated from Punjabi, I mean, used to signify some kind of natural… NME’s about destruction. It’s about saying that no, that’s not natural, whether it’s a race, that’s not a natural way of organising ourselves. It’s also not a progressive or not progressive way of organising ourselves, human to human. However, we end up framed here. So it’s about disruption, about being intergenerational and creative, and it’s also about recognising that we’re in a crisis. And that that’s the essence.
KATHERINE
thanks so much for sharing all that Nirad. And yeah, I think the thing that I’m drawn to ask a bit more about is talking about you building power. And I’m wondering if you can share with us a few of the ways that maybe No More Exclusions does that? That can be for anyone as well, actually. Yeah, Kadeem?
KADEEM
I want to say that you’re giving a voice to the voiceless. And I think over the next year, we’re going to be dealing a lot with arts and culture. So I do a lot of poetry and spoken word. So yeah, I’ve got my mum in the background…
[GAP??]
NIRAD
I would, I mean, the coach is so important. I want to emphasise some of the things we’re not not doing. We’re not a CIC, we’re not a charity, we’re not project based. Because ‘project based’ implies that the direction is coming from elsewhere. Or that the people that you’re working with are fundamentally incapable of doing that work for themselves if you were not there in the first place. Right, which is the most regressive elements of even the movements that the revolution movements that we can study. That was one of the things that held, that we can critique.
SAMI
Amazing. That’s a really good answer. And I enjoyed it, you’ve made me think about there’s, there’s like the term it’s really like, popped off in use a lot in the last year and a bit, but like, the old anarchist idea of like, mutual aid, feels like really crucial in that bit now. It’s not about like a group of people doing stuff for a ‘helpless’ other group of people. It’s about like, people coming together to do stuff for themselves and each other. And like, that really feels like it links to that idea of like building power. So thank you for sharing that. Kadeem, did you want to com in as well?
KADEEM
Yeah, about mutual aid. I was gonna say, yeah, like I’ve been involved as well in providing mutual aid, as an organisation in Lambeth, the Soul Trap. So yeah, over the last couple of years, I’ve been running some of the programmes, the people, and also like a food bank as well every weekend. So I thought that was definitely worth mentioning. And yeah, things are going on.
SAMI
Amazing. And I think that’s like, and I think that really is a thing that strength can really strengthen groups, right? Like when the people that are involved also have these, like links and connections and things like that to other struggles, and like, you mentioned Nirad around like, like, like, looking at the history of other struggles and building that in like, all of these things together, what really makes like a, like a resilient, dynamic, good, getting-shit-done, group.
So, thank you so much for that. Um, so I mean, we’re kind of transitioning over to the next question we were going to ask you anyway, which is around like, could you talk a little bit about what are the projects that you do have, like, going on? Like, what are you focusing on in your work? And why that thing?
You mentioned, like, doing some culture stuff as maybe a thing you’re gonna start doing more of, but maybe there’s a lot of other things going on, I get the vibe that No More Exclusions does a lot of stuff. Kadeem, do you wanna start?
KADEEM
I just wanted to say, basically, um, in terms of a personal journey of education, obviously being excluded, removed, erased from two primary schools, obviously I had kind of a personal issue of the education system or a hostile environment favoured by the education system, because I never had an issue with learning. So I guess my life has panned outl always trying to tussle, that juxtaposition.
And obviously, being a part of No More Exclusions, obviously. So I used to, for I’d say it’s escapism. I’m a gamer. I’m a gamer by profession. So I studied game design, creative media, but I guess being involved with No More Exclusions, and understanding root causes and getting confirmation as well, for something that I would have been gaslighted to not believe before, or maybe would have been isolated enough for being a part of the collective. It kind of kind of brought some of those things to the surface a bit more. And I was going somewhere else with the end of that, but I think that’s a good, good place just to end up going here.
SAMI
Tantalising, leaving us wanting more. I love it Kadeem. Does anyone else want to come in on that question of like, what are you like, what are you focusing on in in the day to day of No More Exclusions at the moment? Nirad, Zahra?
ZAHRA
I can see a little bit
SAMI
Please do.
ZAHRA
So, NME’s conceptualised as a coalition and that’s because first of all, in the words of auntie Audre Lorde, and no one is (and I’m paraphrasing) nobody leads no, you know, we don’t lead single issue lives. And that’s really important. So the work that we have we do we have to do it in recognition that you know, of difference, you know, something that we talk about a lot. So although our focus is on racial justice and race disparity, we recognise that there are disabled people, children excluded, we recognise that there are gender issues that we have to grapple with in different ways. We recognise, you know, class disparities as well. And, and all of that, and all and all of that as well. And beyond that, you know, sexuality we haven’t talked about, but that’s another area of work as well. Another area of suppression in the education system! So, and in society still.
So you know, so really important that we look at, who can we work with, and build those alliances and building those partnerships. A lot of my time is actually spent strengthening relationships and caring for other people: checking in, meeting people, talking to if I can, talking to people, finding out what we can do for them and, you know, how they can help us and, and how can we build power together? What you know, discussing strategies, tactics, and so a lot of the work is relational. And a lot of the work is centred around care, like what do people need is, you know, there’s a lot of – Kadeem’s touched upon mutual aid, you’ve touched about this earlier, a lot, a lot of us are, you know, affected ourselves. But a lot of the systems of oppressions that we’re fighting against. So a lot of us are in precarious work, a lot of us are out of work, a lot of us are, you know, dealing with like, heightened threat of like, because of chronic diseases and illnesses that we’ve got, and so on. And we’re not, we know the state isn’t taking care of that. And so we have to take care of each other, in whatever way we can.
So that’s how a lot of the time is spent. And for example, just today, just to give an example, I was talking to children and young people at a mental health centre, who have got similar concerns to us like we are really, I’ll talk about the moratorium in a sec, but we’re really concerned about the state of children – of everybody -but particularly the state of children and young people’s mental health right now, like that is a huge concern of ours. As a as a coalition, moving in education. And the government doesn’t really seem to give a shit about that. So we have to give a shit.
Yeah, so just talking to, you know, our friends and supporters within the mental health fields, you know, psychologists who themselves, I’m hearing terrible stories of how themselves, their workload is through the roof. The level of need has never been seen before. You’re not hearing these narratives, because they’re getting suppressed. And they’re not you know, people like educational psychology are supposed to look after children in schools, or families can’t cope. And they come to us, some of them have come to us because their own children are getting excluded because they’re not coping. So it’s, it’s tough is really, really tough. And that’s what we do.
So: relational work, building partnership, checking in on each other, trying to help each other with meeting our basic needs and beyond. Because we’re not just about basic needs. We’re not just about survival. But a lot of our work is often centred around survival, I have to say, and like trauma, trauma care, dealing with it. Because it’s trauma, like, being out of work is traumatising, like poverty is traumatising and not being able to leave your house because you’re still really worried about catching this virus, you know all these things are really difficult. Having lost like my own family – two members – all these things are really hard. And I don’t think we are being – not we as a community but – I’d like like the state isn’t been honest with us and about the scale of it you know? They just want us to get on with it. You know, the ‘stiff upper lip’ get-on-with-it. “Yes, we’re not really looking after anyone. So what? You know, everyone’s going to get herd immunity soon”-kind of thing. But it’s not going to happen. And we don’t want it to happen because we that no one’s disposable like that.
SAMI
Yeah. No, I think that’s really important. I think that’s really crucial. I think it’s like, because I think it’s just really honest, right? Because like not, because the way that you describe your work as being like how a lot of it does need to be focused on like the kind of like in like, like internal like care focused work and like trauma support and things like that. Like, it’s just, it’s just not honest to not acknowledge that as part of like, the crucial central work of groups that are like, organising people, because like, a lot of people are traumatised by a lot of the social structures that like, cause all the harms that we’re organising against. Like, it’s not, it’s just not honest to pretend like those things aren’t happening to us. Right? They are, and they need to be taken into account, when we’re doing stuff together. And when we come together, and struggle, so I think it’s really, really valuable that you name that.
ZAHRA
Yeah, and all the time trying to push those changes that you talked about the beginning, when you introduce then me trying to, for example, push the union, the National Education union, to like work on not being complicit, you know, to kind of encourage teachers not to be racist, to have their training.
If and if they can’t cope with it, maybe, you know, I see this openly, and everywhere I go, I will keep saying it: you know, like, teaching is a massive, massive privilege. So if people aren’t willing, teachers aren’t willing to keep learning, and change and grow, then they need to get the fuck away from children. Like seriously, really quickly, as well. So if we keep doing, you know, if we keep getting the same outcomes, and the changes that have been the so called changes, the reforms that are being implemented aren’t helping, then maybe we need to do things differently, you know, which is why we are pushing for radical change, as opposed to reformist change.
SAMI
Yeah, amazing. Thank you. Okay, yeah, so. So I mean, so it sounds like you’ve got a lot of stuff going on, like a lot of internally focused stuff, you’ve got like your youth group that does stuff, mentioned all of these, like creative projects and things like that. So like, sounds like there’s a lot, a lot going on.
ZAHRA
We’re also pushing, trying to push for legal change.
SAMI
Okay, speak about that a bit.
ZAHRA
Yeah, so when we first came together, and I know this is not going to sound radical to the radicals, they’re going to go, ‘What are you talking about, the law is never going to protect us never going to make us safe.’ Like we know this. Hello. It’s just part of the tools. We know this, but we don’t we don’t exist outside of legal frameworks, right? So our children and young people exist in schools, because the law mandates that it should be in school, right. And if parents don’t send their kids to school, they get fined, and you know, all these things.
So it would be dishonest to say, well, you know, we don’t engage with like, legal change. But as long as it’s, as long as we don’t pin our hopes for liberation on the law, I think that’s okay. So we wanted to change the law, the currently as it stands, the law that the mandate that stipulates that it’s headteachers who have the right to exclude it’s only headteachers, it’s not deputy heads, it’s not teachers themselves. I’m talking about permanent exclusion, by the way, because there’s a myriad ways in which you can exclude people, you know, exclusionary practices of, you know, but we’re talking about, you know, your Outs. Which is the most extreme form of school of punishment that you can apply to young people in education. It used to be caning, you know, I suppose, physical sanctions, but now it’s this, you know, you just physically remove someone.
And, and all that that entails, you know, like, deprive them of the sense of belonging, ostracization, all research and what that does to animals, when you take them away from their peer groups and the social groups: the harm is long term damage. It actually physically changes the structure of your brain. People experience physical pain when they’re taken away from their peers, all of that.
So, that’s why the law is really important, I think it’s more of an acknowledged because, because also we are aware that laws exist, and they are routinely ignored. So, you know, you could change the law and then schools could still exclude, right? So again, we’re not fooling ourselves into thinking that if we ever get there (when we get there), that will fix everything. It won’t. Hence why we also need to do work on policy. In in that is means at institutional level, like trying to influence the way the field works, the way academics work, teachers work, trainers work, teacher, education, universe, all of that. And ultimately schools, right?
And then the biggest thing is cultural: unless we see a cultural shift, we unless we, we grow in, you know, within an environment that culturally actually deems it to be unacceptable, unthinkable, abhorrent, nothing will change, you can change the policies and the laws you like, the culture is the bottom line. But the question is, does the culture need to change first? Or does the law? Which comes first, right? We don’t mind and we don’t care, we’re going for all of it! Right. But one way or another, whether the law changes, and then the culture has to catch up, or whether we make it unconscionable to exclude and then the law catches up whenever it does. We don’t mind ultimately. School exclusions will be abolished in this country in our lifetime. And way sooner than that.
SAMI
I mean, that’s a mic. That’s a Mic drop moment right there. I think like, yeah, I think, unless, like some really interesting, like, strategic conversation in there, right, in terms of like, which different strategies are the best ways to to achieve the goals that you want? And I think the attitude that you’ve got is the very sensible one of like: “I don’t know? So let’s just do more than one!” “I don’t know which kind of thing is going to be the most effective. So let’s make sure we struggled on multiple fronts in terms of culture, in terms of trying to push for legal change, in terms of policy work, in terms of building power”, like, and I think that’s a really, I think that’s, it’s I love, I love seeing No More Exclusions and the work you’re doing. Because I think like, it’s, it feels like a good model.
ZAHRA
Sorry, I’ve never even talked about like, parent power. That’s huge. Right? That is untapped power. You know? And we work to develop that to build capacity in the community. That’s why we have our parent forums. And that’s why I was talking to our friend today, you know, from the from the Coalition for Mental Health, children, young people mental health, because they have similar concerns was that there are many rate, particularly the racialised working class parents, and so called working class, whatever that means, right? That are being left out of having the tools; that are disempowered, marginalised, disrespected, not listened to.
And then and then they have the audacity to say, those are ‘hard to reach families.’ Really? ‘Hard to reach’? or just, you know, or just you don’t give a damn about, and you would rather not hear from them, you know, so. Yeah, so the, like, developing parent power is really important.
And the curriculum, I mean, like, I can’t go into it. And but the curriculum is key as well, because kids are bored! Students are bored! Like school is just irrelevant to a lot of young people. They’re just like, you know, what the knowledge and skills we need for life, we aren’t being taught, and you’re just teaching us lies. And you’re teaching us to be like, you’re teaching us to be competitive with each other, and to, you know, to value ourselves according to what grades we get. And then two summers in a row exams have been cancelled. And everybody’s saying, well, it’s no big deal? But you’ve you’ve literally taught us for 16 years, 18 years that is all about exams, and suddenly decided exams are unimportant. So there’s a lot of cognitive dissonance pieces we need to pick up after the pandemic in relation to: what is education for, you know, who is it for? What do we do with it? Yeah, we could go on and on talk about the purpose of education. But yeah.
KATHERINE
yeah, I mean, I wish we could go on and on. I feel like there’s so much more to unpack and to explore.
ZAHRA
There’s a lot more.
KATHERINE
There’s a lot more. And maybe we need a second episode, and we will go into it. And we will go into it. Yeah, I mean, it’s incredible hearing about all the different fronts that you are working on in with this topic. It’s just yeah, thanks so much for telling us. And I guess what we’re going to do now is shift a bit to the internal workings of of No More Exclusions in that, as a facilitation collective, we’re really interested in how groups work as well as what work you do.
And, yeah, a lot of social justice groups, a lot of abolitionist groups are really values-driven. And we’re really wanting to hear a bit about how you practice some of those values in terms of the way that you you organise sort of within within no more exclusions. I’m just wondering if, if someone would like to share. It would be great to hear from you about about that in terms of values in practice.
NADIR
Communication is is really important for it, especially if we’re, if we decentralised to an extent. Really trying to communicate with one another, as Zahra mentioned at the beginning, a few minutes back of what they were saying. And it leads us to this because it’s kind of saying: we need to know first, the very basis like what’s the best way to reach this person? Then: what’s the best way of making sure that we’re not imposing themselves on on them? I know communication is something that I, I really struggle with, even when people I’m in an organised organ, like I organise with, who I call friends or who I call comrades. To the extent where there’s this, there’s this young young person I’ve been seeing outside of McDonald’s when I when I’m doing deliveries. And I’m like this the second time I’ve seen them now, when they should be at school. And it’s and it’s the situation where like, I should have spoken to someone in NME about that. Being like, what would be the best way to intervene.
That’s the benefit of having the organisation; at the same time I realised I haven’t been doing that. After this, I can go and find someone, probably someone who’s slightly older than myself to be like, in that moment, what’s the best way to intervene, because you also don’t want to, again, imply that, that that young person hasn’t made a set of choices in response to stuff that people have already told them. So it’s not about doubling down, in the hope that if you keep grinding and grinding will happen, but I’m kind of waffling. Communication is the essence. And it goes back to how the teacher stands at the front. The students act to passively receive. We don’t want to reproduce that amongst ourselves.
KATHERINE
Yeah, absolutely. And like, just even thinking about, like, how you might reproduce that and reflecting on like, how could I not reproduce that and what would be a different way to intervene, like, just feels like just the thinking about that feels like such a way of putting that value into practice? So yeah, thanks so much for sharing that. I’m wondering if anyone else has anything they’d like to share on values in practice? Yeah, Zahra, great.
ZAHRA
So I was just thinking about the obvious one: social justice and solidarity, those two values in particular. So, everyone’s got a different interpretation of what they mean by social justice, I find, which is not a bad thing. But to us, what is one thing that it means, it means decentralisation and de-hierarchy, deconstructing hierarchies. And I’m not just talking about formal hierarchies, I’m talking about all hierarchies. Because what that breeds, it breeds division, control. It stifles creativity, it kind of really limits possibilities for change. Because people think, well, that’s not my job. It’s not for me to think about, somebody else will do it. Somebody else will think about that. That’s not my role. Do you know what I mean?
So for us, I think the, but it’s not, I don’t want to give like a like a romanticised version of that, because it can be challenging. Like, we’ve all been raised in hierarchical, whether it’s the family structure, whether it’s schools, whether it’s church, mosque, community, whatever, there’s always seems to be somebody in charge, in control. And, oh, we can be briefly in control or think we are in control. But there’s always somebody above, right. So really, I think there’s what we’re trying to do with, with, with with our decentralised structure, is to constantly work on like, communication is key, because if we’re not talking to each other about how we feel, and the process of unlearning, and how difficult that is? Because it’s so entrenched, you know, this idea that somebody said, somebody above me that will take care of it or be responsible for something. We are all responsible for each other, and for all of the work. It doesn’t mean we all do everything, obviously not. But it just means that that it doesn’t work like that. And also the, the the within that there has to be an element of like fairness. Otherwise, it’s not really social justice.
So, you know, the ones who have more time have less kind of like, are less impacted by these systems of oppression, you know, allies within the collective and so on, you know, for them to think about, like we do a lot of work on positionality from the start, we get people to think about when they’re joining us. Right. Okay. What what is your positionality? How, what are your principles coming in? And how do those principles and values align with NME like, have you read the website? Are you, are you sure you know what you’re getting into? Because we centre the voices of young black people who’ve been excluded. Like, that’s who we centre. They even have a final say in decision-making, actually. When, when we, you know, we can’t come up to consensus.
So: sociocratic elements in what we do, you know, decisions about consensus; work strands, decentralisation, local chapters, but generally just a lot of relational, kind of, we, like we’re all in this together, and we all chip in where we can. So there is no departmentalization of roles. In that way, we all have a focus in, like, things that we can bring and things that we’ve gotten interested in. But then if somebody needs help with finding a space, or running a session, or writing a submission, because we’re doing a submission to policy, our work is really varied like day to day, week to week. And this is really quite beautiful, the way it comes together, but it’s really difficult to, to, to illustrate, and to explain, even when you’re in it, you know? It’s difficult: it’s really organic, is really rhizomatic, you know, if you can think of like, lots of sprouting roots everywhere, and ideas and actions coming from all over.
But yeah, the, and the solidarity part is so important, solidarity with each other, solidarity with families, and solidarity with – there is there’s a lot of good teachers out there who are really suffering in the profession, because they’re having to, they’re having to embody very oppressive policies. And they, and they can’t, that’s why CARE was born, you know, the Coalition of Anti-Racist Educators, because we will get contacted all the times by teachers who are like, “I can’t quit my job, but I fucking hate it. You know, so I’m like, I love the kids. But you know, I, you know, what’s happening to me? They literally changing my identity as an educator, I feel like I’m a state agent, or a, you know, a cop or something.” And so we really want to rescue education from carcerality. Really, that’s what we need to do. And, and so solidarity with educators, solidarity with struggles that are not directly seemingly linked to education, whether it’s immigration struggles, whether it’s workplace struggles, whether it’s struggles against the police, and like, do you know what I mean? Like, they’re all linked, by the way anyone who’s listening. They are absolutely intimately linked. But it might not always be obvious. And like, we want to make those connections obvious. So that, yeah, we stand side by side, really.
So those, those are the things that we do. And so, when you if you look at the newsletter, if you look at our socials, but also if you’re part of the collective, you kind of see how that solidarity works. And we bring different things to meetings, or post share with each other, like we need to support this family now, like they need help now. It’s like the campaign is a good example for Osime Brown and his deportation. And, like, we were honoured to be able to support that family. And it was an issue that became a case that became a cause. Because it kind of shows the full breadth of that school to prison to deportation pipeline. And so it’s, I’m so happy that we were able to halt that deportation, but that’s just one case. Right? And he’s still trying to just clear his name, just the basics. You know, like, as always, people of colour are fighting for the basics. He’s trying to clear his name because that’s not, it wasn’t, you know, he was convicted of something he didn’t do. Anyways, I could talk forever as you can see, that’s one of the occupational hazards of being a recoveringteacher, I warned you at the start.
SAMI
[laughs]
No, that was great. I mean, I think from, loving everything that you shared and for like, we talked a little bit before we started the recording, like often like the ‘how do you live the values of like work in your organisation’ is the question that people struggle the most with answering. I mean, firstly, smashed it. Secondly, I think you’ve there’s a there’s almost like a short version, a tagline for NME that came out of that, which is like, rescuing education from carcerality, which is a really nice short tagline. Or maybe, as you said before Khadim rescuing learning from carcerality as maybe a better way of framing it.
And so I mean, amazing. So then, okay, so to, to play us out to wrap us up. And as you said before, like obviously, like the the deportation case that you supported on: successfully resisting like, as you said, it’s just one case, right? And there’s always going to be more things like that in the future. And the best way to resist things like that is to get involved and to like to be involved in organisations like yours. So: what can people do if they’re inspired by what you’ve heard? Or if they’d like to get involved in like, the 27 different projects that you’re running? Like, what can people do?
NIRAD
If people are already involved in in doing work, share it with us on, I mean definitely in the Instagram account on our No More Exclusions account, share it with us. And that’s a good way to see what what other people are doing. It isn’t. It’s definitely not restricted to education, whether it’s people restricting borders in healthcare, resisting borders generally, like, please share that work because knowing that, part of the struggle is knowing what other people are doing. So that’s more directed towards people already involved in some kind of organisation, or collective or mutual aid group. Or music band or writing workshop. Please share with us what you’re doing. That can be the start something.
KADEEM
I was gonna say as well. Just to add to what Nirad said. We’ve got some upcoming merch that’s coming out as well to support us, we’ve got a Crowdfunder as well. And obviously you can support the movement and the wider coalition that we’re a part of as well. Um, yeah, yeah.
SAMI
Amazing. And we’ll definitely put links, links in the show notes to the merch, crowdfunders, socials, things like that. I for one, I’m very excited for the mention of merch.
I always feel weird buying like merch for groups. I’m not a part of because it’s like, why would I do this, but I feel like now I’ve talked to you this is less weird. So I’m gonna get involved. I’m gonna buy some. Amazing, thank you so much. Zahra. Anything else to add?
NIRAD
Just to add with what I said before, we also have a monthly newsletter. So as well as reaching out, reaching out to us on socials that’s something where it can go, where, we do interviews from time to time in there. So if there’s something that you’re working on, and you’d want to speak about, maybe it’s not, because not all work can end up in like a link to be shared. Sometimes it’s something that is very in person. So I also direct people towards our newsletter as a way to build something.
SAMI
Amazing. Can they sign up to that on the website as well?
NIRAD
Yeah. Sorry today to advance because I know that’s gonna be weird to like, deal with but yeah, it’s on our website.
SAMI
No, that’s mint, I love it. This is great.
ZAHRA
I can add, I can add a couple of bits?
SAMI
Please do.
Yeah, I mean, it’s all been said to be only the key things have been said, in addition to what’s been said. Like, we need more people to join, of course, our day to day organising. But also we need friends and supporters who might not have the time. To give, you know, to do internal organising or day to day organising, but can support in other ways that can be really, really powerful. So I want people to think about what power, what influence they have. Where they are, and how can they help build power and, and for coalitional work. For example, by amplifying, by inviting including uplifting, centering lived experience. Not exploiting it, but not being extractive with it, you know? How can you build parent peer support where you are, if you’re a parent, for example, be mindful of positionality because, you know, your positionality as a as a white, middle class, non disabled person will be different to you know, the positionality of someone who’s, you know, got English as a second language, migrant from a, you know, working class, you know, with a precarious job background, etc. So to think about that, when you’re pulling together resources and groups, but definitely think about that. I also want people to, especially educators it’s particularly for educators, teachers, to speak up. I know it’s scary, but to actually be courageous because education, young people, children like need, they don’t need saviours, but they need us to use our voice right now. Education in particular, all spheres of our social lives are under assault, but particularly education, and authoritarianism has no place in the classroom. And we really need to use our voice and oppose and resist, call it out. And don’t go and reinvent shit. Like, if you want to help with a particular cause, whether it’s police in school, whether it’s prison, school exclusion, go and figure out who is already doing the work and support them.
And finally, yeah, please help us with the moratorium, we really need a ban on exclusions in the wake of the pandemic. Like, the last thing children young people need right now is to be kicked out of school. So help us to disrupt the narratives and you know, to shift the frame of like, who is deserving of care, love and education ultimately,
SAMI
I mean, what a list!
ZAHRA
Yeah, very demanding. I am known for being demanding.
SAMI
I mean, you’re fighting, you’ve I read your vision statement, you’ve got a big struggle ahead. You’ve got last time you want to do in the next five and 10 years, so, All Aboard.
ZAHRA
Before we burn out, right?
SAMI
And that’s why the care bit is so important.
So thank you so much. Zahra, Kadeem, Nirad for joining. It has been a genuine pleasure. And feel free to to unmute now and say goodbye.
ZAHRA, KADEEM and NIRAD together:
Thank you for listening to me – Take care – Thank you for listening to my bad jokes!
ALI
Thank you to Nirad, Kadeem and Zahra from NME for joining us on this episode of the Resist+Renew new podcast. Thanks as well to Kareem Samara, and Klaus for the backing music. And shout out to Rowan for doing all the transcriptions on this season.
To find out more about No More Exclusions, check out their website: Nomoreexclusions.com and Instagram, Twitter and Facebook are all in the shownotes so check them out there. And find out more about resist renew as a facilitation and training collective. Our website is resistrenew.com We are on all the socials. And if you want to support the production of this podcast, check us out on patreon.com/resistrenew. That’s all for this week. Catch you next time!